McOrthodoxy, Continued…

The Bickering Continues

The Bickering Continues

Fr. Oliver Herbel has followed up on his earlier post with a new one entitled, Tradition, Traditions, and Racism. Responses interpolated.

Another person thought the real question should not be whether Orthodoxy has the doctrinal basis for rejecting racism but whether it has the testicular fortitude (though this was stated a bit more crudely).

Of course our attackers wish to leapfrog the entire dialogue about whether it’s canonical and get straight to the excommunications.

My racist opponents may be glad to know that the crap goatee is now no longer a problem. I’m now clean shaven!

Your chin probably looks crappy, too. 🙂

Those who refuse to recant their racist statements and actions […]

Please be specific about which statements and actions Matthew Heimbach is to recant, and why.

When it comes to the Orthodox tradition, is it best to continue with strict, exclusionary racial and ethnic boundaries or best to integrate them?

And you accuse me of offering false dichotomies? We’ve so insistently and repeatedly rejected anything and everything “exclusionary” that at this point you’re blatantly engaging in deception.

There is something very ironic about seeking to exclude races from the church […]

Once again, we’re accused, baselessly, of ethnophyletism. He absolutely has to make this charge stick, since he has no other basis for persecuting us. Ironically, he’s the one who’s actually guilty of ethnophyletism for championing our excommunication for being pro-white.

Rather, tradition is a verb, not just a noun. It is something that is living and ongoing and in America, the “new” continuation of the kind of evangelization our Orthodox church has done is fulfilled by making each parish fully open to all races and ethnicities.

Translation: I concede that there’s really nothing in Holy Tradition, the writings of the Church Fathers, or scripture to justify my politically correct agenda, so I’m just going to make it up as I go along without any councils or conciliarity and call it Holy Tradition.

They do not want the kind of conditions in America that would foster this integration within our parishes.

Close. We do not want the kind of conditions in America that would force the integration within our parishes. We agree that the parishes which are compelled to integrate (as many are), should be welcomed and allowed to do so.

We take an oath to defend the Constitution. The Constitution provides a vision that ultimately results in a country willing to be open to people regardless of ethnicity and race. America has not always lived this correctly, to be sure, but it is so open and in being so open, it provides our church (and any other church) the opportunity to integrate all people and share the Gospel with all.

Where in the U.S. Constitution does it say anything about racial integration? Last I read, it was notable for counting Black Americans as three-fifths of a person. It’s hardly a model for your political correctness. If that’s your model for American racial issues, then you’re more “racist” than we are, Rev. Oliver.

Ultimately, that is the real danger of those who wish to exclude (whether directly or indirectly) on the basis of race and/or ethnicity–one works against the spreading of the Gospel. That is certainly not “tradition.”

The logical conclusion of this “indirectly” weasel phrasing you’re using is that national borders and boundaries are all heretical, and everybody who supports their existence is a heretic. This is asinine, and immediately debunked by Orthodoxy’s success in Eastern Europe across numerous distinct identities and borders.

History has proven time and again that spreading the Gospel is most effective when it’s presented and delivered within the ethnic, tribal, and traditional communities humans exist in. Saint Herman’s missionary work with the Eskimeaux exemplifies this.

What you’re doing is crafting a false dichotomy between being an Orthodox Christian and a White American, denying communion to those who unapologetically identify as White Americans.

And that’s the ethnophyletic heresy.

  • Kievsky


  • Robert Pinkerton

    It is interesting that you speak of the Antiochan Church. As you know, I am not of your community of Faith, but, several years ago out of respectful curiosity, I read Rodney Stark’s The Rise of Christianity. Dr. Stark centered his story, IIRC, on early-Christian era Antioch, which he described as (my condensed paraphrase) a cockpit of ethnic conflict, with fourteen different ethnic communities in the city(!) and intercommunal riots every week!!

  • Nathan Barnes

    Are you familiar with Zizioulas’ Eucharist Bishop Church? If he is remotely correct, and there are racially integrated cities (which there are) then racially disintegrated churches are an abomination. And anyway, since there is only one Eucharist, racially disintegrated churches are impossible, though we can make them look disintegrated, which, since a false icon, is also abominable.

  • Fr. John+

    If he’s now clean-shaven, then Herbel clearly, willfully has abandoned the Rudder, and is acting as a Heretic- for a priest must (must!) have a beard, and a goatee is not even the ‘bare minimum’ for the Novus Ordo- let alone the True Orthodox.

    But, how much you wanna bet he [Herbel] was already (I bet) a Novus Ordo, New calendarist drone, anyway… right?

    Hey, Ollie, where’s Stan?

    Amazing how ‘by their fruits ye shall know them.’

    • Fr. John+

      Matt Heimbach’s beard, otoh, is worthy of a Patriarch! LOL

  • Luka

    One objection: St. Herman did not missionary work with anyone called “Eskimeaux”. He was among the Alutiiq people, who have a unique ethinc identity among the Alaskan peoples.

    • Orthodox Mike

      The Aleut’s ethnic identity should be unimportant if people like Fr Ollie truly believes his Babelism. We know this is not the case, nor should it be.

  • Fr. John+
  • an observer

    Maybe we should speak to the higher ups about excommunicating these guys for wanting to remain Arab…

  • Fr. John+

    And for the West, for remaining heretics, for so long! Whoo-boy this is GOOD.

    And it probably infuriates all the Fordham Jesuit PhD’s in SCOBA.


By: Matt Parrott

Matt is a founding member of TradYouth and is currently the project's Chief Information Officer. He's been active in the White Identity cause for years, primarily as a blogger but also as a street activist and regional organizer.
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