Which Orthodoxy?


Saint Moses the BlackHis Grace Bishop Anthony has refused, despite every effort on our part to humble ourselves, refrain from controversy, and open our ears to wisdom, to explain how what we’re doing is heretical. This is because he can’t. He cannot explain why the Antiochian Orthodox Church proudly sponsors an annual conference celebrating Black identity while denying Matthew Heimbach communion for that very same thing. He cannot explain why he endorses and supports ethnic pride for just about every ethnicity but my own.

Championing and promoting one identity while denying communion altogether to a man for daring to champion and promote another identity is clearly and directly ecclesial ethnophyletism.

We’re glad that there’s a Brotherhood of St. Moses, and pray that our attempt to resolve this stark double-standard does not result in their coming under undue pressure. Our position is in favor of celebrating and promoting the glorious kaleidoscope of identities (including blended identities) within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. For years, we’ve attended several immigrant, minority, and non-white parishes, and we’ve shown and will continue to show nothing but love for our fellow Christians of every tribe, ethnicity, and identity.

St. Moses’ own teaching of the broken jug, in which men gather hastily to judge a brother while blind to their own sins they’re leaving behind, can be instructive for the thousands upon thousands of men and women who are gathering to cast judgment on Matthew Heimbach. We’ve gone out of our way, before and during this unholy farce, to make our absence of “hate” for other groups plain. In fact, Matthew Heimbach and I promptly delivered the following statement to Bishop Anthony, removing any lingering doubt that we may still stand behind statements made years ago.

I reject the heresy of phyletism. Nobody is to be denied entry into the Church, warm fellowship, or communion on the basis of their racial, national, or ethnic identity. The Orthodox Christian Church is Universal, transcending racial, national, and ethnic identities, and each parish must remain a safe harbor for any and all Orthodox Christians.

I reject the sinful notion of supremacism. Humility is a cornerstone of Church Tradition and an attitude of superiority over our fellow man is incompatible with the Faith. I reject racial supremacism, sexual chauvinism, class elitism, and all other worldly attempts to glorify myself at the expense of others. Regardless of our strengths and virtues, which are themselves but gifts from God, we are all equally sinners and penitents unworthy of God’s grace.

I reject the sinful notion of homophobia. A subtle but vital distinction is to be made here between a rejection of the sinner’s behavior and hateful bigotry toward that sinner. We are all sinners, and imagining that this particular sin renders a man or woman uniquely wicked is a prideful and uncharitable approach to the problem. While homosexual behavior must not be tolerated or accepted as anything other than a sin, homosexuals themselves are also God’s children and are not to be persecuted, attacked, or denied their basic human dignity.

I reject the attitude of violence. Defending one’s family, folk, and faith with force may be necessary from time to time, but only after all peaceful means of conflict resolution have been exhausted and a precedent of preferring peace and harmony over strife and injury has been clearly established.

I will abstain from controversy within the Church. Even the smallest and most outwardly homogenous parish contains a wealth of political opinions, personality types, and backstories. It’s vital for the defense of the sacrality and unity of the Church, its Divine Liturgy, its Holy Icons, and its parishioners that undue controversy not be stoked within its walls. I will seek at all times to bring the congregation together in a shared love of Christ rather than pulling it apart along inevitable differences.

I will also be mindful of how my words and deeds outside the Church may bring unwelcome controversy into it. I will avoid appearing to speak on behalf of the Church, making controversial statements about the Church, or intermingling symbolic elements associated with the Church with any controversy I may be involved in outside the Church.

I will respect the authority of the Church, humbly accepting penitence and guidance as it is generously provided. If I have issues, conflicts, and concerns relating to the Church which are too burdensome to silently bear, I will discreetly and respectfully raise them through the proper channels. I will strive to set an example of obedience and will refrain from idle gossip, controversy, factionalism, and squabbling either among fellow parishioners or with clergy.

As for the last paragraph about respecting the authority of the Church, Heimbach continues to remain too fearful for his salvation to speak out. I firmly believe that this diocese is indulging in heresy. If I had received any answer at all, I would still be contemplating on it. We’ve been stonewalled. I cannot silently tolerate its ongoing slander of and humiliation of my dear friend. I cannot reconcile its message and actions with Holy Tradition. I’ll cease my squabbling the moment they stop teaching and enforcing the heretical doctrine of anti-White political correctness.

Political correctness is the “orthodoxy” being enforced, here, and that’s not the Orthodoxy I signed up for. For centuries and centuries, the Church carried on not knowing that ethnic identities and their preservation were heretical. Even now, the vast majority of Orthodox Christians around the world would find that surprising. The Orthodox of the Mother Churches and immigrant Orthodox here in America may not have any sympathy for us, though we have the utmost sympathy for them. They likely believe the lies that we’re racial supremacists. They likely see this all as not pertaining to them. It does. We’re merely the first casualties in the Western Atlanticist neo-colonialist war against our Church’s God-given diversity.

To quote Gregory Hood, “Whatever God TYN’s critics worship, it is not the God of St. John of Kronstadt, St. John Chrysostom, or the soldiers that fought in the name of Holy Russia throughout the centuries.  It is not the God that sustained the monarchies of Eastern Europe, the oppressed Christians groaning under Muslim occupation for centuries, or even the Russian faithful of today.” I appeal to the intercession of the Church’s ethnomartyrs, Christian saints who died for their Christian identities, to intercede on Matthew Heimbach’s behalf as he awaits mercy and refuge from a Church which is being subverted by a decadent gaggle of Western “converts” who’ve adopted its outward trappings while busily working to subvert its doctrine and mission.

Fortunately, with Church Tradition firmly on our side, we cannot lose. All we must do is stand firm on the inspired words and deeds of the countless saints, bishops, and Orthodox faithful who throughout the centuries affirmed our simple message: The doors of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church remain open for all of God’s nations. They stand open even for my people, with no demand that we must agree to terms which guarantee our oblivion. And if the doors are held closed by the enforcers of the other orthodoxy, Modernity, then I will kick them open.

Gott Mit Uns.


  • costa

    A genuinely humble young convert to Holy Orthodoxy, himself a PhD student researching a topic concerned with Orthodoxy, aged 24, from a North American world view said to me:
    “I’ve only been a practicing Orthodox Christian for 2 years, I think I will not speak out in the public square and represent The Church, for perhaps another 5 or so, since it’s like learning a completely alien culture to my own Protestant culture I was raised in”
    That, my dear boy, is the heights of humility – of the kind that Orthodox Christians are known for in Traditional Orthodox countries: Greece, in my case. Having a “Sabbatical” that lasts long enough to try and argue for a minute with a Heirarch, and attacking others also indulging in racism (in your mind) instead of acting in humility and discipline that we Orthodox are known for. Our greatest Saints sometimes spent years in a cell, or wandering in the desert, experiencing extreme aesceticism and you can’t manage half an hour on your sofa in your mum’s house.
    — Costa.

    • tradyouth

      I was willing to humble myself to wisdom and wait as long as necessary. I have no further recourse within the church.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Costa, you are a man after my heart! I love your comments on this page.

      We do not re-make the Church to be what we want it to be. The Church teaches us, and guides us. We do not teach the Church and we do not guide it.

      So when the Church told me that I could not be an anarchist, it was hard to take, but I changed my mind. When the Church told that I had to love my neighbour as myself, and could not give my myself to fits of rage and violence, I turned to inner prayer and mental strife to be free myself from the passion of anger.
      Matt, I’m not asking you to imitate me. But I’m telling you, when the Church tells you that Christ is Risen, that’s a testimony you die for. When the Church tells us to abstain from passion, that’s a spiritual diagnosis and the Church has the medicine. Listen to your bishop for who he is – a representative of the Apostles. He gave you no reason? That’s because he trusts you to find the reasons yourself.

    • E777

      You are imposing your ideology on the church. Never in the history of Orthodox Christianity has there been tolerance of homosexual perverts, feminism, organized Jewry, or racial Marxism, these are all heresies. You and Costa are heretics, plain and simple.

      It’s sad that Matt Heimbach is actually taking this phoney, heretical church’s demands seriously. The entire hierarchy of AOCA would be dismissed in a heartbeat in any other country, including and especially Syria.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      E777, neither Costa or I are endorsing homosexual parents, or Marxism. In terms of feminism, I do not endorse women’s ordination or feminine language to describe God. In terms of “organised Jewry”, I have no idea what you are writing about. And am not curious enough to know, the very phrase is repugnant to me.
      And if the AOCA would be so heavily dismissed by the Patriarch of Syria, then would have been by now. They haven’t, therefore they wouldn’t.

    • The anti-nationalist and anti-racialist arguments used by the PC Christians commenting on this thread are very weak.

      Rather than making a vague appeal to “love”, can someone show a specific statement from the Bible or from the ancient councils that says that it is wrong to assert that a particluar man, family or tribe is better than another at performing a wordly task? Readily acknowledging that with respect to salvation all Christians are one in Christ and our worldy attributes are irrelevant, can’t we say that with respect to worldly abilities, inequalities exist, both within nations and amongst nations? And why is it that no one cares when we point out differences within a particular ethnic group (saying, for example, that some white men are born smarter than other white men), but when we point out differences between two ethnic groups (saying, for example, on average white men are born smarter than black men) suddenly we’re heretics? If it follows from us being “one in Christ” that white Christians and black Christians are equal in intelligence, then wouldn’t you be forced to say that all white Christians are equal in intelligence as well?

      You believe that Christian love and the universal nature of the Church are incompatible with nationalism. Then explain why it is ok to restrict membership in a political community by language, place of birth, and culture, but it is not ok to restrict membership in a political community by ancestry. Following the logic of your argument, wouldn’t you be forced to affirm that destroying all national boundaries bewteen Christian nations is to be desired?

      It’s true that our current racial understanding is informed by Enlightenment science, and this is a good reason to reject arguments that claim that race is relevant to salvation. But it is not a good reason to reject racial science when it comes to wordly considerations. Modern medical science also comes from the Enlightenment, and one one, presumably would claim that modern medicine should not be used by traditionalists, or that traditionalists should reject all modern medical claims as false. If an orthodox country is suffering from a plague, would it be wrong to consult physicians whose knowledge comes from positivistic science and stastical analysis? Should we reject their suggestions about how to deal with the disease? You can argue about the morality of allowing third-world hordes into Europe, but you cannot deny that every time large numbers of non-whites have been allowed to settle in white countries, negative consequences have followed, nor can you deny that racial science gives very reasonable biological explanations for why this is.
      Once again this has nothing to do with salvation. We all acknowledge that children do not posses the mental abilities of adults, but of course both children and adults can be saved, and being an adult gives no advantage in this regard. It is the same with race. Claiming that Africans are childlike in their mental abilities says nothing about their prospects for salvation.

  • TestTest

    Why don’t you just join the Church under the Moscow patriarchate? Or the Serbian patriarchate? There are others, too, but both these jurisdictions would be supportive of your views, I’d think.

    Why fool with all this American Antiochian non-sense? You don’t need to kick any doors down, as you say — you just need to walk through doors that are already open and waiting for you.

    • tradyouth

      It’s not that simple. We attempted to be released and are being sat upon.

    • costa

      Church hopping – this demonstrates a Protestant “Pick and choose” rationalist liberal mentality. Instead of submitting to a fitting penance following a public display of violence and blasphemy, and then posting pictures in public places of this unholy act, thereby bringing Holy Orthodoxy into disrepute in your lands. Of course far easier to proffer endless rationalistic argumentations than to actually submit to a penance. It’s like an arguement with your wife – The Church is your wife, and no amount of “Look how correct *I* am” will win you into her favour – rather, a humble keeping silence speaks volumes at times.
      — Costa.

    • tradyouth

      I don’t even have a penance.

    • TestTest

      It’s not quite like Protestant “Pick and Choose” is it, though?

      Whether it’s the Antiochians, or Serbians, or Moscow, or wherever, the doctrine’s the same. The contents of the communion cup are the same … So it’s not like trying out the Disciples of Christ after the Methodists after the Baptists, etc., right? Anyway …

      Honestly, I didn’t know that one jurisdiction has to ‘release’ you before transferring or applying to another Church. Seems like I’d just pick up my bags and go to a jurisdiction that didn’t care about my political/social opinions.

    • costa

      It’s a Protestant mindset of rationalistic liberal individualism though, that is at odds of the Orthodox Way, the way of Sobernost to wonder off and start hopping from one Patriarch to another. It takes years to grow out of if one grows up in a Protestant culture. Of course, the Church is one, The Gifts are The Gifts, you are right – Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy: right Worship (doxa from “doxology”)+ right belief.
      –Costa

    • costa

      Matt: being denied Communion. Surely that’s your penance, until you repent of this foolishness?
      — Costa.

    • tradyouth

      I’m merely a catechumen. Please explain what aside from defending Heimbach, is foolishness.

    • Wait – so you’re trying to negotiate with the bishop over the terms of your entry into the church, and you call that “humbling yourself?” I’m really trying to wrap my mind around this.

    • tradyouth

      Betraying my identity is an intolerable and blatantly heretical condition. What’s humble about turning my back on my people to save myself?

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Hate to break it to TestTest, but neither the Moscow Patriarchate nor the Serbian Archdiocese nor the Greek Archdiocese will put up with this nonsense, either.
      And that’s because both Churches carry a heavy, painful memory of Nazi atrocities. Seeing that the Nazis viewed all Slavs, whether they be Serbian, Russian, or Ukrainian, as sub-human. And they viewed Greeks and Romanians the same way Especially the Slavs who are Orthodox.
      It’s unlike the heayy, painful memories of Ottoman Occupation and Communism. (Don’t forget that the relics of St. Vladimir of Kiev were desecrated by the German Army. And that many of the most beautiful icons ever painted are permanently lost to us after Nazi atrocities in Novgorod.)

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Costa, you are absolutely correct. We do not jurisdiction hop or parish hop until we get what we want.

    • E777

      The Nazis did not see all Slavs as subhumans. They did dislike the Polish, for reasons that still bring animosity even today, but that was more for regional reasons- kind of like how Greeks relate to Bulgarians but less extreme than the Croatian-Serbian rivalry.

      Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary were Axis allies of the Third Reich. To say the Germans thought they were subhuman is like saying they thought the Italians and Japanese were subhuman.

      Millions (yes, MILLIONS) of Ukrainians and Russians fought on the side of the Germans in WWII against Communism. Another myth you pulled out of your ass debunked. And while fighting with the Greeks was indeed intense, Hitler held the people of Greece and its culture in very high regard. Looking at Third Reich ideology, art, architecture, and the private words of Hitler on Greeks/Greece you can say nothing except that he was a phil-Hellene. He did everything in his power to stay out of the Italo-Greco war, even offering a peace treaty via Canaris to Metaxas, where the Greeks would keep their gains in Albania and the establishment of a de-militarized zone between.

      Of course, shortly after Metaxas received the peace treaty, he suddenly got sick and died…of “TONSILITIS”! The British were the ones who dragged Greece into WWII with Germany, against the will of the Greek people, and the British were the ones who blockaded the ports that led to the starvation of the Greek people.

      Learn your history, you snobby ignorant scumbag.

    • Karl Stoss (@DoktorEisenbart)

      I think the condemnations of TYN for phyletism show the perennial mistake of equating ethnic nationalism with seeking to create explicitly ethnic jurisdictions or nations. The orthodox model of society is autocracy not nation states and the church is universal, not ethnic. It just so happens that churches and jurisdictions have developed ethnic characteristics and boundaries. A universal church and universal autocrat, empire would not, however, require ethnic groups to intermarry or otherwise dissolve. People are free to live as they wish, as separatists or integrationists, within the community of the church. This behavior is not antichristian as many modern priests, Gilquist among them, assert.

    • Karl Stoss (@DoktorEisenbart)

      Has anyone who questions the use of gas chambers to execute people in German concentration camps noticed the irony that the liberal, globalist patriarchate of Constantinople canonized Maria Skobtsova in 2004, who according to the testimony of her life, took the place of a jew in line to be gassed on Holy Saturday? This woman has become well-loved amongst all liberal, modernizing orthodox people. I cringe whenever I read a quote of her on a blog or hear of a church named after her. She was a communist, member of French Resistance. No miracles are attributed to her. People want to believe in the Holocaust with religious overtones and this woman’s story adds sanctity to the tale. People have accepted her as a saint by believing in lies about the Nazis and therefore have accepted the story of her “martyrdom” with ready credulity.

    • Karl Stoss (@DoktorEisenbart)

      The communists desecrated the relics of Saint Vladimir. Where are the sources for the claim of Nazi desecration?

    • Gavin James Campbell

      If anyone needs to learn their history, it’s the one who thinks that the Nazis did not think of Slavs are subhuman. Still, if you insult me enough times by referring to me as a “snobby ignorant scumbag”, well, then you might settle the issue.

      At any rate, it is a matter of fact that Hitler viewed Ukrainians and Russians as “mongrels” tainted by Mongol blood. The Nazis would murder as many of them as possible for the purpose of creating “liebensraum”, or living space, for the Germans. Did the Ukrainians first regard them as liberators? Yes, only to find Nazi atrocities so horrendous that they sided with the Soviets. Those Ukrainians who first welcomed the Nazis would be slaughtered outright. Did Ukrainians fight with the Nazis? Yes, but the documentary evidence shows their numbers to the the hundreds, not the millions.
      While Hitler plundered Greek works of art, in acts of outright theft. And had no interest in Geek Orthodoxy.

      By the way, just yesterday, Putin commemorated those Russian soldiers who fought the Nazis. With full support of the Russian Orthodox Church “Наци” is as much an insult in Russian as any other language.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      E777. Check out this new law Vladimir Putin signed.
      http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-criminalizes-nazi-denial/25373990.html
      Please, visit Russia and present your views of “history”! Hopefully, you can spend some time in a labour camp for it!

    • E777

      “E777. Check out this new law Vladimir Putin signed.
      http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-criminalizes-nazi-denial/25373990.html
      Please, visit Russia and present your views of “history”! Hopefully, you can spend some time in a labour camp for it!”

      Wishing that I get sent to a gulag for having a different political opinion, oh how very Christ-like of you Gavin!

      Russian thought-crime laws are irrelevant to real history. For years it was a severely punishable crime in Catholic Europe to say the Earth was round, doesn’t mean it’s right.

      “If anyone needs to learn their history, it’s the one who thinks that the Nazis did not think of Slavs are subhuman. ”

      They didn’t. The whole myth is based upon some out of context/liberally interpreted quotes by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, which was written decades before the war. Hitler at that time also praised the British, but not so much in WWII. Watch virtually ANY German newsreel on the war in Russia, and you will find them referring to their enemies as Bolsheviks, not Russians. The Germans believed the Russian people were under the yoke of a Jewish communist elite…which even Winston Churchill agreed was true.
      “At any rate, it is a matter of fact that Hitler viewed Ukrainians and Russians as “mongrels” tainted by Mongol blood. The Nazis would murder as many of them as possible for the purpose of creating “liebensraum”, or living space, for the Germans. Did the Ukrainians first regard them as liberators? Yes, only to find Nazi atrocities so horrendous that they sided with the Soviets. Those Ukrainians who first welcomed the Nazis would be slaughtered outright. Did Ukrainians fight with the Nazis? Yes, but the documentary evidence shows their numbers to the the hundreds, not the millions.”

      No he didn’t. Thousands of Ukrainians actually lived in Germany at the time as guest workers and were treated with respect and paid dignified wages they could only dream of in their communist homelands. Close to a million Russians and Ukrainians did join the Germans and fight against Bolshevism, look up General Vlasov and his unit or Stepan Bandera.

      The idea that the Germans began killing the Ukrainians who greeted them as liberators is hilarious stupid and historically unfounded. The Nazis had a wide-range of opinions on Russians and Ukrainians, but if being “tainted by mongol blood” was such a big deal to them, they wouldn’t have allied with the Japanese or created Caucus Waffen-SS units. You know that 10’s of thousands of Indians, Muslims, and East Asians volunteered to fight in the German army? Among these is Chandra Bose Subhas, considered one of the liberators of India, who formed the Indianische Legion that fought in India against the British with German arms, uniforms, and support.

      “While Hitler plundered Greek works of art, in acts of outright theft. And had no interest in Geek Orthodoxy.”

      Such chutzpah. As any real Greek will tell you, the biggest plunderers of Greek art are the fucking British.

      He had no interest in Greek Orthodox personally, but that doesn’t mean he was against it.

      “By the way, just yesterday, Putin commemorated those Russian soldiers who fought the Nazis. With full support of the Russian Orthodox Church “Наци” is as much an insult in Russian as any other language.”

      What do some political machinations have to do with history? Members of the Bulgarian Orthodox church commemorate the fighters of their army. Clergy of the Romanian Orthodox church commemorate the memory of Corneliu Codreanu. I can use that as much as you use your examples. You’re comparing apple with oranges.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Well then, E777, you are essentially asking me to a.) deny historical facts and believe all out lies (I stand by everything I typed as being true); and b.) deny my heritage and be a Quisling.
      Well, I’m not betraying my heritage and ancestry. The defeat of Hitler by my forbears is something I am proud of. So much so that I’ll not declare it behind a moniker like E777, but use my real name.

      (And tell me, speaking of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, tell me of the courage of the Patriarch of Sofia in protecting Jews being murdered in the gas chambers.)

    • Gavin James Campbell

      And E777, demonstrate you courage, or lack thereof, by going to Russia or Ukraine and tell your lies about the Great Patriotic War. Be a martyr to you false history by breaking the laws of both countries.
      “Who Dares, Wins” – as the British SAS said when fighting those filthy Nazi bastards in Egypt. With Greek help, and Greek soldiers had a vision of St. Menas routing those vile murderers. And that vision is now a canonical icon of the Orthodox Church. Then again, daring was never the virtue of the Nazis. For which the civilised world is grateful.

      Is it Christian of me to hope that your languish in a labour camp for your lies? Yes, it is. God places government in power to punish wrong-doers.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Ты читаешь по русскии, E777? Если ты можешь, читаете.
      http://www.sedmitza.ru/patriarch/2013-10-25/4181792.html

  • You really think your bishop has nothing better to do than debate with you over whether your ideas are acceptable? That a week or two is the outer limit of patience when waiting for a response? You clearly have no idea what the responsibilities of clergy entail.

    In any case, I’m glad – legitimately glad – to read your statement, which, as written, implicitly repudiates a significant percentage of Mr. Heimbach’s previous political activities. Still, an *explicit* repudiation would be preferable. I doubt one’s forthcoming, though – the Right, far or otherwise, has a deep-seated inability to acknowledge past errors.

    Still, a few things bother me in the statement – the reference to the defence of “folk,” which is a slippery term with deeply supremacist connotations, for one, and the bit about “strengths and virtues” which seems, to me, to leave room to defend the idea of racial superiority as long as it’s not the basis of a political program.

    The big thing, though, and the thing I really can’t get over in all of this, is that you think there’s such a thing as a white race (or ethnicity? Like I said, folk is a fuzzy term – just what do you mean by it?). Where is this white race historically? When does it diverge from the proto-Indo-Europeans? At what point do its gods become distinctive? What practices have they shared? You all talk a lot about Fr. Moses and the BSMB, and ask why there’s a problem with a similar organization for “white” Orthodox people. It’s because there are no “white people” – there are English, sure, and Germans, and we’ve considered Irish people and Jewish people white for a hundred years or so – and if you were to develop an interest in an actual people with actual culture and an actual history, you’d find a few things quickly. First, you’d find that there are lots of Orthodox people who, for example, have a devotion to Irish saints and culture. Second, you’d realize that most of them realize that cultures, peoples, and identities are always changing – there is no ethnogenesis because there’s always, only ethnogenesis.

    • tradyouth

      He didn’t claim to be busy. He claimed to be final. Whether you think my identity is legitimate is completely beside the point.

    • Well, I’d wager he knows a little more about Orthodoxy than you do. (Or I, for that matter).

      Your “identity” (is this really what you mean? It’s usually used, in political contexts, to refer to something malleable and constructed, not something permanent and traditional. I think it’s a fine word to describe “whiteness” but hadn’t thought you would) is precisely the point. Because white identity (unlike Irish or Greek or Chinese or African-American) is something thought up after the fact to justify things like slavery and rape, glorying in “whiteness” is insulting to people who can’t fit the category. White identity is1 supremacism – in the American context, especially, non-Anglo-Saxon immigrant groups assimilated by jumping on the white supremacy train – but it’s not as if people who have been considered white don’t have real ethnicities.

    • Leslie H. Higgins

      Well, obviously the statement isn’t going to repudiate TYN’s beliefs; it merely confirms the compatibility of its beliefs with Orthodoxy, if I understand correctly.

    • tradyouth

      Yea.

    • Trainspotter

      Adam Parsons: “Your “identity” (is this really what you mean? It’s usually used, in political contexts, to refer to something malleable and constructed, not something permanent and traditional.”

      This is ridiculous. The European peoples obviously exist, just as do various Indian tribes, or any other group. “White” is merely the shorthand that is used to refer to these European peoples in general, as well as the blended whites that are prevalent in the diaspora. They are all of European descent. If you genuinely can’t understand what “white” means in the context in which we use it, then you are too short for this ride.

      “White” (my European genetic and cultural heritage) is an integral part of my identity, and that of many millions of others. We don’t seek or need your permission for this, any more than the Navajo or the Koreans do. Attempting to deny or suppress a person’s identity is a very serious thing, Adam. The Matts aren’t attempting to do that. You are.

      Adam Parsons: “Because white identity (unlike Irish or Greek or Chinese or African-American) is something thought up after the fact to justify things like slavery and rape, glorying in “whiteness” is insulting to people who can’t fit the category.”

      So the very existence of the European peoples is “insulting” to non-whites? Wow. Just wow. It’s o.k. with you if we occasionally have a quaint festival where we drink green beer or something, just so long as we continue to accept being overwhelmed demographically, reduced to minorities in our own countries all over the world, mixed out of existence, discriminated against through affirmative action laws, raped and murdered in the streets, and being denied any voice to defend our interests. You’re so very generous, Adam. Such a nice person, you are.

      In your incredibly generous worldview, we don’t exist at all…unless it’s time to discriminate against us, vilify our heritage, and gloat over our declining demographics. Whites were slavers one minute…and don’t exist the next. Then we pop back into existence when it is time to bemoan “white privilege” and reduce our numbers in a given area, and then poof! We disappear again. LOL!

      Here’s something for you to ponder Lil Adam: tribes form as they form, peoples define themselves as they define themselves, and they don’t require your permission, or the permission of any other mental lightweight, for any of it.

      Those of us who care about white identity reject your politically correct drivel as the Orwellian and anti-white garbage that it is.

    • Phil

      Trainspotter’s post pretty well sums up the deep confusion at the heart of this project:

      “‘White’ (my European genetic and cultural heritage) is an integral part of my identity, and that of many millions of others. We don’t seek or need your permission for this, any more than the Navajo or the Koreans do.”

      The Navajo and Koreans, like the Irish and Greeks, are actual peoples and cultures. It’s no accident that you named them rather than, say, “The Native Americans” or “the Asians.” Such groupings, like “the Whites,” are NOT actual people groups or cultures, they’re just political/power groupings.

      Parsons is entirely wrong and deeply uncharitable in his definition of Whiteness, of course. But you all don’t seem to understand what it is, either. In the American context it is not a race or a culture. It’s simply the grouping of those of us who have been stripped of our culture by America (this process today is called multi-culturalism but it has defined what America is from the very beginning) and live together here under it’s terms. Up until the last few decades all of us derascinated and assimilated peoples have been European so we’ve looked “white.” But our only real commonality is that we’re culturally beggared. All these other people’s joining us in this state is a tragedy for THEM, not for us.

      Why do you in one breath decry today’s multi-culturalism and in the next lament the loss of yesterday’s? It makes no sense. The cultures of our ancestors are dead and irretrievable. Yesterday’s multi-culturalism is worthy only of the same pity as today’s. Living without a real culture is deeply painful and inhuman, I agree. But trying to reanimate a corpse or call the mish-mash of cultural cadavers that is the Frankenstein’s monster of American “culture” (White or otherwise) something good is ludicrous and no true path to what you want. We live in the ruins. Look around you and build a culture with your neighbors, whatever their skin pigment.

    • Trainspotter

      Phil: “The Navajo and Koreans, like the Irish and Greeks, are actual peoples and cultures.”

      Of course they are. But they are also part of broader peoples that they are very closely related to racially, culturally, and in countless other ways. How they choose to identify with those so closely related is up to them, not you. If the Native Americans had been able to unite in time, they might well still own North America. Not being able to recognize reality in time has its price. Still, I don’t preach to them as to how they should handle their identity, but anti-white clowns feel free to preach to us. Hint: it’s not going to work.

      You don’t get to determine what part of a person’s identity is legitimate or not, as if somehow the concept of a “Pole” is legitimate, but the concept of a “European” is not. I, and many others, say both concepts are legitimate. And they are.

      Whites have long had a broader identity in addition to their specific ethnic origins. We’ve seen this not just in the American context, but all over the world, wherever Europeans went. Europeans recognized that they were made up of fundamentally kindred peoples, whether we are talking about the United States, the White Australia policy, or countless other examples. It’s pretty hard for an Irishmen to look at a group of Norwegians, and then at a group of Zulus, and not find it rather easy to determine where he fits in best.
      Pretending that Poles are as closely related to Kenyans as they are to the Irish is simply absurd, and factually wrong.

      Just as whites developed a positive identity centered around their European heritage, non-whites recognized our similarities as a people. The blacks and browns who beat whites on a daily basis don’t care whether the white in question is Polish, Irish or Norwegian. That he is white, that he is of European descent, is quite enough.

      Our enemies target whites as a group, whether in racially motivated attacks, legal discrimination, claiming we have white privilege, or gloating over our declining demographics and impending minority status. In fact, the entire world seems to understand this, but clowns like you and Adam just can’t get it.

      Those who seek to suppress white identity are merely trying to make it easier to digest, feed off of, and genocide whites. If whites don’t exist, then they can have no interests to defend, and therefore no legitimate voice to defend themselves. This is very dark, dirty stuff that you and Adam are engaging in, albeit from different angles. It’s also just plain dumb.

      I’ll also add that white nationalism is an update on traditional nationalism. It does not deny the various particular white ethnic groups their identity, and I personally am all for Norway for the Norwegians, and Italy for the Italians. But we’re not interested in going back to the old nationalism that led to brutal slaughters of whites by other whites. Those brutal conflicts are no longer sustainable in a world with incredibly destructive weaponry and a rising Asia.

      White nationalism is an updated nationalism that addresses and solves these historical problems: senseless war, colonialism, and slavery. We’re not going down your road, Phil, any more than we are going down Parson’s. We’re something different, that you either oppose or simply do not understand.

    • Phil

      Matt Parrott: This is the kind of irrational nonsense you’re upset the Bishop is not giving a hearing to?

    • Trainspotter

      Phil, what is irrational, and I would go so far as to say evil, is attacking whites in countless ways, then claiming that they don’t exist when they try to defend themselves.

    • Trainspotter

      And also Phil, as you seem to have a very disingenuous streak to you, Matt is not expecting the Bishop to give consideration to MY positions. I don’t speak for Matt, and I’m not Orthodox.

    • Lew

      If you’re reading Rod Dreher, I hope irony in this exchange does not escape you. Or, maybe it does. You know how the leftists on your blog who relish attacking Orthodox Christians operate on the topic of SSM. They define their views as correct, and then deem everything else “irrational” because it’s not their view. It’s disappointing you treat TYN with the same disdain and intellectual dishonesty with which anti-Orthodox leftists treat you. Perhaps you should write an essay analyzing the above post by Matt Parrott, and then explain why it’s wrong. Last time you discussed TYN, you didn’t do much in the way of serous analysis worthy of a serious public intellectual. So take up the task, if you’re up to it, and rebut this essay. And this time, avoid using dismissive labels like “racist” and “white supremacist.” You’re not a homophobic bigot. The Matts are not racists in the sense you dishonestly used it in that essay.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Adam Parson, I wish I could click like on your comments!

    • John Maelstrom

      Trainspotter, you hit all of your points so solidly, so clearly, that you have officially overtaken that “Most Interesting Man in the World” from the Dos Equis beer ads in terms of general coolness.

      I salute you, sir!

    • Trainspotter

      John, thanks man! By the way, I’ve got my “Too Cool For School” T-shirt on order, should be here any day now.

    • Vick

      @Trainspotter

      Thanks for taking the time to parry with these anti-whites. As usual, you’re articulate and efficient in dealing with their obsolete 1970s “critical race theory” sophistry.

      For the benefit of bystanders, I would only add that people take note of the rhetorical devices of anti-white ideology and their similarity to other ideologies which seek to lay a groundwork for oppression, ethnic cleansing, and even genocide.

      In particular note this argument that “white people don’t exist.” Aside from being intuitively nonsensical (as well as scientifically), it reminds us of the kind of rhetoric that extremists use to justify the persecution of enemies as well as whip up the rank and file. For example, look at how extremist anti-Palestinian Israelis routinely use “the Palestinians don’t exist” as a basis for all kinds of injustice, including ethnic cleansing.

      I’ve noticed that “they don’t exist” rhetoric tends to be used by those in power to justify oppression against less powerful groups, rather than by the powerless against the powerful. This is due to obvious reasons – there’s no reason to listen to an oppressed group if they officially or intellectually “don’t exist.”

      It is a fascinating irony that the supposedly so oppression-sensitive Social Justice Warriors of the politically correct left are employing rhetoric used by some truly nasty people around the world. For example, there are Saddam Hussein supporters who, for whatever reason, claim that “Kurds don’t exist.” There are Chinese imperialists who claim that “Tibet doesn’t exist.” The Burmese government refuses to acknowledge the Rohingya ethnic minority and claims it “doesn’t exist.” Japanese bigots love to claim that the “Ainu don’t exist.” The Nepalese refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Madheshi minority in Nepal.

      I could go on.

      I suggest that the “white people don’t exist” folks take a hard look at themselves, take a look around the world at people who say similar sorts of things, and think about what they’re really saying.

      You anti-whites don’t get to decide who does and doesn’t exist. At worst, “you don’t exist” rhetoric has a disturbing exterminationist aspect, at best “you don’t exist” rhetoric is silencing, uncivil, and deeply undemocratic.

  • Leslie H. Higgins

    Glad to see you speak up. I tell you, it has been a long week in the nationalist blogosphere, and folks in certain sectors began to lose faith in you. Thankfully, we again have TYN around to demonstrate that nationalism is compatible with Christianity.

    As a Catholic ally, I hope all works out well, and that this proves an apt moment of reflection for your bishops about which master they serve, and whether the law of the salvation of souls remains the supreme law of the Church.

    Deo Vindice!

  • Seeker

    If you are in fact a traditionalist, then putting your faith in institutions was a mistake. For all it’s positive elements, the Orthodox Church is, like the Catholic Church, an institution of the modern world. And as you can see it is vulnerable to the same forces that ruined the Catholic Church and eventually transformed it into an anti-traditional force. This is only the beginning of what the modern world will do to the Orthodox Church, as it becomes a more relevant target for subversion and entryism.

    The reality is that there are no viable traditionalist institutions in the modern world. There is no institution that is worthy of your faith. You don’t get to take the easy road and find an existing, uncorrupted institution and have it solve all of our problems.

    If you want a traditionalist institution worthy of your loyalty, then you (and a select group of comrades) will need to build it yourself and actively maintain it to keep the rot out.

    Stop hanging out with anti-White American Protestants who adopted a foreign religion in an attempt to look holier than everyone else.

    • JPOutlook

      Pagans belong in India

  • fn
  • Alex

    Religion rots the brain whether it be Christianity or Liberalism. Both give too much power to con artists.

  • Gavin James Campbell

    Matt Parrott, your identity is not being threatened. Rather, you will find your identity in Christ and in His Church. But only if you submit to your bishop as a representative of His Apostles.

  • KO

    Our Lord was a nationalist patriot. He brought his message to his people but welcomed others who wished to share it, or who were willing to eat the crumbs from under the table. That models Incarnation to us. We are, and live in, peoples, and are called to represent and bless them. Peoples are porous and changing, as our are ministries. That doesn’t mean peoples don’t exist and aren’t central to our being. Only a deluded ideologue can deny that, someone willfully blind to the nature of the Creation.

    Welcome back. Sorry you brought your unsavory friends, but we are all learning from each other. We’re all laboring under sin and disappointment. It would be a travesty to spend our precious energy just beating on fellow-sufferers because they bitterly cling to a destructive ideology. Rather focus on protecting the innocent from them, and when the innocent are dragged from the fire, go back and pull out the arsonists. In other words, keep on task and gather the traditionalist youth. Learn valuable skills and be ready to form self-sustaining communities when the Corn-Syrup Cornucopia© collapses.

  • costa

    All I hear is:

    “White guilt is evil”
    “No, you just don’t get it: white victimhood is evil”

    Why not just celebrate your culture, whoever you are, without making it such a “thing”?
    If in all seriousness, you are prevented from doing so, as are Christians in Egypt, who are denied permits to build their Churches, then you have every right to protest this injustice.

    But, come on, are white people in the USA denied permits to build churches?
    Is their language banned, as was the case for Kurds living in Turkey?
    How, exactly, are your freedoms being denied?

    The best way to promote white culture is to celebrate it, excel in it, write great music, solve scientific questions, find cures for cancer. You get the picture. If you have a religious calling, then why not on your campus start a christian group instead, instead of all this “white student union” nonsense, reacting to the other ex-pats and others such as the “Greek student union”, the “Brazilian Student union” or the “Afro-carribean student union” what have you. Sure, if you went to school in Rio, then by all means set up an “North American Student union”. Or, if you wish to celebrate a particular aspect of your culture, then sure, by all means set up an “Opera appreciation society” or a “Headbanger’s society” (for those who appreciate Heavy Rock music) if you are so inclined.
    How is this context hard to understand?
    – Costa

    • Gavin James Campbell

      “Like” – this site has no like option for your comments, Costa. So I’ll type it in!

  • Trey

    I thought there was a difference between a White man and an Oriental slave.

  • Gavin James Campbell

    Here’s a video of the Matts defending their views:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWWdk-GVZV8

    At any rate, being of pure, 100% British ancestry, and a 20+ convert to Orthodoxy, I love to sit around with Russians and Ukrainians and relate stories of our grandfathers in their brave efforts to smash Fascism. And as a the son of a Scotsman, I still pray my psalms. Not quite like a Scots Presbyterian, but still somewhat like one. Orthodoxy has enhanced and enriched my heritage, and my disgust with racism and fascism is part of that heritage.

    • Orthodox Mike

      You’re 100% British, Gavin. That explains a lot. You Anglos have been selling us out for years and are always in cahoots with the Zionists and Capitalists and Masons that rape and rob cultures. Now your position makes a lot of sense.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      У тебя зовут Православный Миша. Ты православнее чем меня!

    • So would you approve of the racial views of 1930s Britain? Or would those be “fascist” by today’s standards?

      It’s ridiculous that all white nationalists are instantly acused of fascism, when many of them simply want to go back to the pre-1960s view on race that was common throughout the white world.

  • If you are interested in what Orthodoxy really is, there are a lot of people who love our traditions and our church with decades of experience in it and knowledge about it. Jesus said that to enter heaven one must have the attitude of a child- to be ready to learn new things.

    If someone comes into Orthodoxy with pre-judgments about Orthodoxy being about race and they announce from Day 1 that this is Orthodoxy, then the Orthodox view is that the person has to be humble and thinking like a child ready to learn from a teacher- the Church. If someone is not yearning with a desire and respect for what the Church community teaches and ready to brush aside prejudgments, then it is not really Orthodoxy.

    In this case, the Church has said to stop the racial activities, which includes the “Traditionalist Orthodox Brotherhood.” This is a chance to learn Orthodoxy. Why not take it?

    • Orthodox Mike

      We are not violating Holy Tradition by saying Europeans exist. Sorry. Just like Fr Moses Berry isn’t violating tradition by saying black folks exist.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Well, you do seem to have hang-up with the Brits, Mike!

    • Hello, Michael.

      You are right that saying Europeans and Blacks exist does not violate Holy Tradition. However, the Tradition is that a person who begins in Orthodoxy will have a humble nature of respect and obedience to the Church. I can tell you from experience that this includes new converts avoiding announcing what they believe Orthodox teachings say in a way that contradicts what their spiritual fathers and bishops ask them to do.

      Learning about religion, and Orthodoxy in particular should be an enjoyable experience in an open-minded way that cares about, loves, and sincerely respects the Church and other Orthodox Christians.

  • Gavin James Campbell

    Matt Parrott, Matt Heimbach, and OrthodoxMike: please, go to Russia and tell everyone what you think about Hitler and the Nazis! Vladimir Putin signed a new law into action just for you!
    http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-criminalizes-nazi-denial/25373990.html

    Why worry about excommunication when you can pay a 500,000 ruble fine or spend five years in jail? Maybe you can post an open letter to the Patriarch of Moscow, replete with quotes from St. John of Krondstadt and St. John Chrysostom. (Iron Guards be damned.)

  • Matthew

    Become a traditionalist Catholic. You won’t have to put up with any of this BS, just go to Latin mass. You have betrayed your Western Heritage by becoming Orthodox, redeem yourself.

    • Orthodox Mike

      I am not into Nazism Gavin, you thick headed dolt. I just believe we have a right to survive as much as anyone else. So stop your ignorant arguments and trying to put words in my mouth! Would to God you would criticize the Globalists and Capitalists that are trying to homogenize and destroy all cultures with their sick neo-Babelism as much as you denounce people that you truly do not even know what they think. And St John of Kronstadt WAS in the Black Hundreds. Elder Justin Parvu WAS in the Iron Guard. Quit trying to play the Libtard revisionist.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Orthodox Mike, if you insult me enough times by telling me that I’m a thick headed dolt and playing the libtard revisionist, you’ll convince me that I’m wrong and you’re right. It’s true! Insults and name-calling settle issues and win debates.

      So insult me some more and I will join you!

    • Gavin James Campbell

      Тем не мемнее, <>, я очен впечатление. Ты експерт Православного Церкова!

    • Trainspotter

      Gavin: “Orthodox Mike, if you insult me enough times by telling me that I’m a thick headed dolt and playing the libtard revisionist, you’ll convince me that I’m wrong and you’re right. It’s true! Insults and name-calling settle issues and win debates. So insult me some more and I will join you!”

      Some questions to ponder: Why would Orthodox Mike want a thick headed dolt of your sort to join him? Do the low quality of your comments actually deserve more than mockery? Does screaming Nazi at people who aren’t Nazis elevate the discussion? Or yourself, for that matter?

      Just saying.

    • Leslie H. Higgins

      A bump to that, Matthew! For all the problems in the Catholic Church, I have never heard off shenanigans like this within Her, because she is really concerned with the good of souls first.

      (I would not, however, go so far as to call him a traitor, because I gladly invite Russians to betray their “Eastern Heritage” and Japanese to betray their “Shinto Heritage” so that they may make their home in the One True Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither holiness nor salvation can be found.

    • Gavin James Campbell

      I never thought that a conversation with white nationalists was capable of elevation!

  • Karen Conley

    My loyalty is to God alone through His Son, Jesus Christ, and not to any church or denomination. My beliefs are Calvinist and the denomination that I identify most closely with is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. If there was a church of this denomination anywhere near our neighbourhood, my husband and I would join but, as there is not at the present time, we worship at home. I believe that the Reverend Robert Lewis Dabney was the greatest minister ever to have preached on this continent and most of his views on the modern evils of this society would be compatible with the doctrines of the OPC. However, again, if any church or denomination does not line up with the Word of God, get out of it and get out fast.

  • Why put up with this?

    What’s the difference between these people and the Unitarians? If you want to be a Unitarian, why bother with “Orthodoxy” when you could join a Unitarian Universalist Church?

    • Leslie H. Higgins

      Good day, Mr. Griffin! Glad to see you opining on this affair.

      “What’s the difference… .” True, it can be difficult for a non-believer to understand.

      The most straightforward answer is, “The Orthodox have a valid priesthood, and have the sacraments.” As a Catholic, to be sure, I regard the Antichene and other “Orthodox” Churches to be in schism and heresy, but the Matts were pursuing the truth, and wound up there.

      I do not know if you were raised Protestant, but suffice it to say Catholics and Orthodox do not go to Mass for the sermon. If the priest is unzealous, or even if he’s fallen into heresy, he still has the Christ-given power to administer the sacraments and thereby bestow God’s saving graces. Now, if the Church the Matts have joined is refusing them the sacraments for a transparently political reason, my hope is it will be enough to cajole them to turn to a Church that takes its divine commission a bit more seriously.

  • Third Matt From The Son

    The first Matt and the second Matt need to understand something: you have no right to question your church since those who preside over it draw their authority DIRECTLY from God. To question them is akin to questioning why the sun rises in the east. It just does. Likewise, to question why the Son (of God) rises from the pulpit to command you to OBEY is blasphemous. Simply put, you two need to shut your traps and do what God tells you. And when your church leaders speak that IS God speaking, since His commands are channeled directly through them. It’s akin to a corporal or a lieutenant questioning a five star General over an order he’s just given. That just gets you sent to the brig! So H*U*M*B*L*E yourselves, drop your hatred of negroes, and get work down at an inner city homeless shelter feeding pregnant black women and wayward crack-heads. Drop your racism! God loves all colors, especially the dark ones. After all, they’re the ones who’ve suffered the most.

    Signed,

    a white Christian who stands for Jesus

    • marvin120

      No, no, no.

      Jesus didn’t teach any of this. He never gave officers of the church any special powers, and in the very early days of Christianity there were no priests, bishops, etc. These are all man-made constructs and they’re dangerous if given too much credence– if, for example, one believes a priest is actually “holier” than any other Christian, or any other man for that matter, then a priest’s actions, if dishonorable, could drive people away from God. And because priests are sinners just like everyone else they’re bound to fall short, and we’ve seen some stunning examples i the Catholic church over the last several years, that’s for sure. Many Catholic churches in this country and in Europe have seen a severe decline in attendance in recent years, and this is directly related to the boy-raping (let’s call it what it is). Someone has faith in a priest as a direct messenger from God, then that priest shames himself in sin, then the person loses faith in God. This is where a rigid church hierarchy can be problematic.

      The message of Jesus is for everyone, not just members of churches who watch men in robes chant in Latin. Church leaders who can be described as “powerful”, or who think themselves powerful, are dangerous and would do well to remember that pride is a sin. As our Savior says: the meek shall inherit the Earth. He washed his disciples’ feet.

      Has this Orthodox priest washed Matt Heimbach’s feet? Would he “lower” himself to that, especially for someone he considers not worthy of communion? Based on what we know about him, does he sound more like a follower of Jesus Christ, or a follower of the Pharisees whoa handed him over?

    • Orthodox Mike

      The Fathers and Ecumenical Councils trump bishops and priests if they are out of line with Holy Tradition. As St John Chrysostom stated, “The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and skulls of bishops.” I respect the authority of the Church, but Modernist PC heresy is not Church dogma.

  • afelloworthodox

    Trainspotter needs his own blog, I would enjoy reading it as much as i do this one. He always had a reasoned, intelligent response for even the most virulent white genocide supporters. Kudos for fighting the fight with honor!

  • an observer
  • Holly

    Great respect for the Orthodox Church but I don’t think it’s functioned properly in the USA very often. A jurisdictional nightmare, an attachment to aging immigrant ghettos rather than baptizing the American culture like it was supposed to have done… Further, they are setting themselves up to be enemies of genuine Americans if they try to baptize this anti-white culture. As a wandering catechumen I will tell you this, I’m honestly worried about the upcoming council in this atmosphere, it seems like the devil is already in the walls.

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  • Matthew Raphael Johnson

    This is vile. The Cossacks would have torn his head from his body. These characters pretending to be “ancient Christians” are actors. As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” (Mark 12).

Saint Moses the Black

By: Matt Parrott


Matt is a founding member of TradYouth and is currently the project's Chief Information Officer. He's been active in the White Identity cause for years, primarily as a blogger but also as a street activist and regional organizer.
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